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JUNE 18TH, 2015
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hello calamity! we're nearing the two months mark in a few weeks. how time flies! right now we have two things going on that need your participation. the first is an activity check! it is impotant that you check in so you don't lose your face claim. the second is the otm nomiations! we're doing it a bit different than last time. so please submit your nominations in. a vote thread will be up in the next few days. there will also be a formal event coming very soon, so keep your eye out for that. keep being cool!
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Personally I go either way but since everyone is discussing it right now why not do this and have peoples thoughts a little organized. At least this way the staff can see how people feel and make a move based off of that yeah? I'm all about hearing peoples view points.
Yeezy= Yes I like levels, hot damn they get me hard...
Nah Son = No, Level's are nasty gtfo out my face with that garbage tbh...
Last Edit: Jul 21, 2015 7:02:10 GMT by Miles Serran
Post by Dmitri Khvostov on Jul 21, 2015 7:29:18 GMT
It's obviously an integral part of balancing pokemon battles and most battles are won based on experience; but whether or not it has any statistical applications in free form can be... argued? It depends on how you look at a pokemon's 'experience,' and their 'level,' independently and dependently.
Like with what Peeko suggested, a pokemon raised on rare candies technically has no battle experience; but there is an obvious power within it (level,) despite it not quite realizing that power by then. But that shouldn't mean it can't exercise the power all the same. It's just not a veteran of battle, or at least not as much of one.
I guess the big question here though, is whether or not levels should be taken into account when battling? Well that would depend on whether or not you want to provide dedicated/(hardworking?) members with incentive to level their pokemon beyond obtaining moves. This isn't necessarily mandatory though, since people will be grinding for moves learned at later levels anyways.
We also don't want to make Gym badges irrelevant, along with other quintessential parts of the pokemon universe. I've been away from it for awhile so examples aren't popping into my head, but I'm sure there's more to it.
While we obviously don't want a grinding oriented roleplay, we don't exactly want it to be possible for everyone to create their endgame team within such a short span of time. The main reason anybody is grinding now is because of the 'generation' gap between launch members and members like me who have only joined recently.
I personally think levels should matter, although I don't want to say I appreciate the battle simulators dictating the outcomes of our fights. They're a very good guide, but it's a struggle to have to simulate everything. Most of us (myself included,) just want to RP it out and 'wing it,' but there's room for error without a hard rule to dictate battle systems.
I think the healthiest thing to do would be to try and keep the free form atmosphere without installing any sort of hard set ruling. We're community driven: if we can't get along and make a few compromises, then we're not going to get anywhere working collaboratively. I also believe that it's important to try and ignore the competitive side of pokemon battling for roleplay.
I know this is going to sound controversial, but scripting fights seems to be a thing here. And it's not entirely a bad thing; it keeps us from clawing at each other's throats and gouging for one another's eyes when we can simply choose to work together and weave a scenario that suits us all.
Getting too competitive is the problem; I realize everyone wants to be numero uno (it's part of being human, I'm one of you guys too,) but we have to try and realize that getting uber competitive is probably something that will merk the shit out of the site. People will start getting upset when so-and-so has a team composition that can't be beat because they've done x or y. We need to keep everyone happy and feeling like they have an influence on the site's progression. (I should probably make a suggestion separate for this little tidbit.)
However I've also come to the conclusion that free form has a few downsides. There are a few pokemon evolutions that can be postponed or avoided altogether and while in the game this would prove a hindrance, on a free form site it poses a few concerns. If we assume a pokemon was designed with its stat allocations and typing to create a healthy balance, and we create an environment where they can ignore evolving but reap the best of both benefits, we've created a really specific loophole for certain pokemon. Maybe it's just Dragonite and maybe I'm just biased but I'm not a pokemon master so I'm not 100% sure if there are or aren't more like this case. I'd say it's more than worth looking into but again Mr. Biased Mamoswine Guy here who wants that x4 damage, lol.
I'm just going to highlight a few concerns with some propositions people were making earlier in CBox. No names because I can't remember anyways and it'd be rude.
1. Removing levels would flat out make everything confusing; not sure why anybody wanted to suggest this. "Ignoring" them for combat might be a legitimate procedure, however.
2. Levels being inconsequential to fighting makes Gyms somewhat irrelevant. It also makes raising pokemon irrelevant beyond getting certain levels for particular moves. This creates an environment where certain people/pokemon will be better off than others by far, i.e. Heatmore could be Lvl 1 and it wouldn't need to Level up for much because it's already stacked with a bunch of endgame moves.
3. Creating more need for evolution items is just going to cause issues. I suppose it would be more cost effective to switch from needing 4 PD RC's in the dozens to 6~12 evolution items at around ~6 PD each iirc. But it wouldn't feel authentic, it would feel queer.
4. It will create a situation where using battle simulators won't even quite work as a guide anymore. Meaning we would sort of abandon what little structure we even have. My point in this being, a pokemon's stats in a simulator are greatly influenced by levels. Removing their function removes the viability of using a simulator to gauge how a fight could end.
Well aint' this a peachy situation? I do want to point out one thing before my post. I did not say discard the level system but change rare candies. So really the thread should be "Rare candies vs no rare candies."
Perks of Rare candies: 1) Limits grinding- This is easily the best part of rare candies, they help with everyone in knowing that they can't fall too far behind and make it almost impossible to catch up. Not much more to say in all honesty for the perks in my opinion.
2) Too cheap? - Just through my opinion I think the cost of these are too low a thread long enough could mean two free levels at the end of it. Which isn't counting the levels that may have occurred in the thread itself. If there was a full count of fourteen posts that's ten pokedollars. Three wild pokemon which means potentially 3 levels and 2 Rare candies thats an easy five levels! (Arguable a perk or con)
Downside? 1) A need to 'end game' - Rare candies make a point for people. The more posts you have the more money you have. The more money you have the more potential power you have, to just rare candy your pokemon past anyone else on the forum. While I do not say you don't deserve it for having that much money saved up it kills a large amount of roleplaying and the point of growing stronger as a character and a team.
2)Too cheap? Just through my opinion I think the cost of these are too low a thread long enough could mean two free levels at the end of it. Which isn't counting the levels that may have occurred in the thread itself. If there was a full count of fourteen posts that's ten pokedollars. Three wild pokemon which means potentially 3 levels and 2 Rare candies thats an easy five levels! (Arguable a perk or con) I agree people should be able to gain more if they are on more but rare candies can just further the gap even more from newer members and veterans.
3)Less Freeform- While I understand the process of leveling to be stronger and a weaker pokemon shouldn't always win. Due to how the battle system is currently, it is already in skew of a higher leveled pokemon. Which is in all reality fine, then this becomes a game of numbers however (fundamentally how the pokemon video game already is) causing battles to be who has the higher level. As stated above some people plan out their battles before hand and that too is fine. Though there will come a point where that won't be the case. Levels create a barrier in a positive way. I feel are just meant for moves and evolution. In various media we are shown new trainers beating experienced ones. (I.E the Pokemon Special! Manga and the anime) Moves seem more based off of calculations not interactions for what could be physics in the situation. Smaller pokemon more agile? But larger pokemon being faster? This is just suggestions that levels are also influenced by other stats just making a text based version of pokemon showdown.
Those are downsides I thought of but granted it is late at night. I very well could be wrong ways I have thought to change this in some way.
1)Separate levels? A battling level and actual level? Where battles have your pokemon stronger in battle while an actual level determines what moves they have and what they gain and ready for evolution.
2)Rare candies set to a minimum of how many to buy- Not really a way I would like to see happen. Just to halt anyone buying in abundance since as of now there doesn't seem to be a dire need for a large amount of items. Pokeballs, ability capsules, evolution stones, and Rare candies are all the rage!
3)Increase to price- Most logical way in my opinion. Using a rare candy is missing a roleplay that could have been done instead. I'd say a more expensive price like 10PD. Maybe even giving a discount price to all BUT trainer classes since they have an easier time leveling.
4)Amount of Rare candies a pokemon would take -Just an idea of having a pokemon only being able to have a total of ten candies ever. Maybe the taste just isn't that good? I can't quite explain this one but a pokemon being fully brought out on rare candies and being as strong as a pokemon that battled and gained real experience just doesn't add up to me.
These are just thoughts I don't hate rare candies I just think it has more of a potential to push people much farther ahead than need be. I agree the site shouldn't seem grind like but regardless a true pokemon journey is a long and rigorous one isn't it? What's the rush of getting stronger? As said above everyone wants to be the hero that saves the day my character guilty to a fault. But there is no point to not have teamwork along the way to get stronger and develop more characters right?
Post by kristmar mortensen on Jul 21, 2015 12:06:48 GMT
Mannn... I'm totally late to this party but, since it's the level system, I thought I'd put in my two cents.
Level system or true freeform? I have seen this discussion in so many places but tbh most of us would likely go for the former, even if it serves as - like Felon said - a guide. Plus I think overhauling the level system would just create a more work for the admins rather than less since they'd have to sort out evolutions by level, how a pokémon learns moves and some way of controlling people speeding through the gyms.
With a level system in place, calculators or freeform? Honestly, I'd just suggest that thread participants decide for themselves whether they want to use freeform or a battle calculator in a battle before they start out. Not everyone's keen on calcs; some people find them too fiddly, someone people think they take the fun out of battling, some people just want honest freeform, etc. Also remember that in the battle guide it states that "xx. we go by a freeform battle system. so no calculations, no percentages. everything is up to the poster to decide" so... if someone wants to freeform, it should be respected. Either all thread participants freeform it or they all calc it but, if just one of them prefers freeform, then the former should be done. Of course, freeform leaves room for abuse but that's nothing new and nothing that can be controlled because, in the end, it's freeform, there are no real rules. The only thing that can really be done is for participants to talk it out or even script it beforehand since that's a thing.
Rare candies? Yeah, they're pretty cheap with the amount some people post but what can be done about it? Make them expensive so they're out of the price range of slower posters who can't hope to catch up anyway and act as only a slight deterrent to those who can easily get the money for them? I like what was suggested about there being a limit to how many rare candies a pokémon can consume though, something like a max of 20-25 RC per pokémon would seem reasonable to me.
So... basically... I think we should keep the level system, let people freeform, let whoever wants to use calculators while bearing in mind that this is a freeform rp in essence, put a limit on rare candies per pokémon and, maybe, increase their price slightly.
The only other suggestions I'd put in is - regarding the level system - that there's a limit to how many levels a winning pokémon can gain when there's a considerable level gap (maybe cap it at 5 levels earned for a 10 level gap) and - rather unrelated but it seems fitting here since we're talking about levels and store items - that heart scales can be bought in store so 'move remember' can be used. Maybe at 3-5PD each. Idek why evolved pokémon are learning lv1 moves that they wouldn't actually learn until 'move remember' is used, especially when some of the moves are eventually learned through leveling up but on much higher levels.
Uhhh... yeah... that's my view on this. This kinda... came out longer than intended. I'm sorry ;u;
Post by Sylvester Blackburne on Jul 21, 2015 19:54:55 GMT
Here is my two cents. Yes, I am pro levels and rare candies as is.
1) I can somewhat agree with maybe limiting the total amount of rare candies we can use per pokemon to 25 RCs, but ultimately that just makes the "grind" everyone is talking about take longer. Rare candies were made to make leveling less bothersome (like a grind). Having to level through pure battles means everything will probably take longer, and we all know it does take quite some time as is. You can say it is just another grind, but you get pokedollars while battling. Ultimately, it could/should be considered a win-win, as nothing extra has to be done to acquire pokedollars. Even with all of this stuff going for us, it still takes longer to level here than in the games. Why make it take longer?
2)However, I don't agree with raising the prices of RCs. As Machine said, it just makes it harder for other people who can't be as active. Someone like Lexus who is already ahead in levels and far ahead in pokedollars will just shoot ahead one day when she decides to go on a shopping spree. Odds are that it will happen (with someone if not Lexus), and raising the prices will just make it that much more of a grind to reach said person. I don't think that raising the prices will help.
3) Like the aforementioned, and what I said last night. We can have levels, but freeform allows us to pretty much determine together (the parties battling) who wins. And if you think damage calc. will always be against you, keep in mind my 77 legendary poke beat a 86 non-legendary in a random showdown battle. The lower leveled pokemon can win.
Even if it is choreographed or scripted, that makes little difference. Half the plots on site are scripted. This is a roleplay, where we write together, but first we brainstorm the potential dealings and outcomes of a thread. Scripting a battle is no different, and nobody should ever think that they should be able to just start up and begin beating people in battle.
Even I generally let people win to benefit the leveling of their choice pokemon. Especially as a trainer, because I still level for losing. Yet, the only reason I am so far ahead of anyone is because I put work into the site.
Making it where putting work into the site (go ahead and call it grinding I don't care) has no effect on your character's or pokemon's progress ultimately means there is no end game/goal to achieve. The only thing for us then would be capturing the pokemon we want. Maybe befriending a legendary.
I already have 5/6 pokemon I want. The only thing left for me to do then is "plot". I'm not good at plotting besides generic interactions, and there wouldn't be a lot for me to do. I'd probably be done already and go on my way elsewhere. I don't want that.
Someone like Lexus who is already ahead in levels and far ahead in pokedollars will just shoot ahead one day when she decides to go on a shopping spree. Odds are that it will happen (with someone if not Lexus), and raising the prices will just make it that much more of a grind to reach said person. I don't think that raising the prices will help.
damn son. you didn't even hesitate to shove her into oncoming traffic.
Post by Sylvester Blackburne on Jul 22, 2015 5:47:48 GMT
We all know she is rich, I am just giving an example of someone who literally has enough money and is still ahead in levels without spending much of it that they are ahead of the curve.
It would just make the "grind/struggle/etc" to catch up that much more intimidating if RCs were made more expensive. I mean, imagine if you tasked yourself with catching up to her because why not. And then she suddenly spent her life savings (doubtful but still possible) to reach a new pinnacle of poke-power via rare candies.
When you consider all that, do you really think it would be easy to catch up if the prices were raised? Would you want to make it even harder to catch up? Does it sound better or worse for new members aspiring to join and get their own journeys started?
That's all I was really trying to say. I really like her character, don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to point fingers or anything of the sort. Sorry about that. But I know we all want to play our 'special part' on the site as individuals. Depending on who wants to be the "best/strongest/etc" trainer, the standard would already be set high without raising the prices of rare candies.
P.S. I will refrain from commenting on this further! uwu
hiii guys. based on the consensus of the site, i've put together a couple solutions.
● rare candies will not be limited to a pokemon, but stronger pokemon will have to eat more to level up. kind of like in a couple rpg games. a system will go somewhat like this: (courtesy of vicious c: )
level of your pokemon = rc per level / pd per level
this is based on the current levels we have now. we will adjust the levels as everyone progresses. this will let new players and catch up with the old players more easily, and also let weaker pokemon train up to par with stronger levelled pokemon without a lot of grinding.
it's a little complicated, but i think it's manageable. i'd rather do that then increase prices and alienate the newer players or set a limit on rc.
● freeform is freeform. that means no rules. both true freeform and calculation falls under this. so if it's up to the players to find whether they want calculations or not, factor in stats and certain attacks, etc.
● move tutor/move rememberer. for a flat rate of 4-6pd you can buy heart scale. this lets your pokemon remember a move that their evolution knew previously, or use a move that a tutor can teach your pokemon. possibly even an egg move. this is the price per move. moves that are learnable only by tms are not included.
● also this is a reminder that levels are gained when you faint a pokemon, not based on the win/lose scenario. this is to prevent rapid grinding and encourage actual battles.
Post by Dmitri Khvostov on Jul 22, 2015 6:05:57 GMT
Q~Q This RC system really confuses me, to the point I would probably just pull a Lexus and not spend PD on Rare Candies for my pokemon after a certain point.
I'd be okay with that, if there were enough other things to blow PD on. But otherwise I'd feel like I had a currency that wasn't worth much because it progressively costs more and more for the same effect.
Since we're free form and levels won't matter as much as they would in the game, is it really important to adjust how the Rare Candy system works as it is now?
The way I see it, the site technically works the way some people are hoping to achieve. That we can ignore levels as a way to determine raw power, and only have it affect evolving and move learning. If that's how we are as a site, making it cost tons more to reach the later levels, when many pokemon learn their best moves, is a very poor decision. We would all be grinding infinitely to get to the right level(s). And certain pokemon would be better suited to this because they learn their move set earlier than some.
Honestly, I think making it easier to level is sorta the right decision. We want players to be able to catch up with us quickly enough, otherwise why bother joining? They'd never catch up to us in a reasonable amount of time, assuming we as a site ever reach a point where some of us have level 70s. I'm not sure what Noodles intended, but I was hoping to stick around for a long time, permitted we're all still here.<3
cila said they were based on the current levels we have now and that they will adjust accordingly when we progress on the site. so no worries about that for now until much later when characters actually have higher level pokemon.
and the system is pretty simple. for pokemon levels 1-12, they require 1 rare candy to level. for pokemon levels 13-20, they require 2 rare candies to level, and so on. so for example, if you have a level 19 pikachu, in order to level it to 20, you need to buy two rare candies which cost 4pd each so in total 8pd.
its a different system and it will take some getting used to if its implemented but its an alternative to the issues people have with rare candies.
lol here's something not sarcastic Sylvester Blackburne no no pls keep commenting if you want to i hope you knew i was just joking 8(((
okay first off i dont really care about what's done via the level system. there's pros and cons about all of this but a lot of the argument when it comes to rare candies and the possibility of abusing it as it stands now to get their pokemon to a high level and everything else is sorta all focused on the fact that Syndra Mawdrey has a lot of money she has yet to spend.
i mean -- that sorta just happens when you post a lot and she hasn't bought much of anything as it stands now. i think just tms??? i dont even know. and while the chance of abuse is there it hasn't happened yet.
if anything instead of reworking the level system or getting rid of it we could just do a level cap that changes as the plot continues/ events are placed up and completed.
so say as we are now there could be a level cap of 30. which gives people a chance to catch up as well as a goal to be had other than personal plots, participation in events, character development and capturing pokemon. plus i would think doing a level cap would give the staff less work -- so they dont have to actually go back through their rules and change things and make it work for everything.
Post by Dmitri Khvostov on Jul 22, 2015 6:39:14 GMT
I can kind of get behind a level cap, but it would be something that people would struggle with if they caught up to it too fast. However I don't think that would be a huge issue.
Also I think I get the situation for RC's better, but what I'm getting at it I don't see why it's a big deal to limit how fast people level. If we suddenly inflate the amount needed, we're still basically increasing the price without increasing the price early on.
I don't know, I think the system isn't as bad as people were worried it was. If we tackle the current system with a free form approach as the site suggests, there's really no big deal with level differences. If somebody wants to argue it further, well, the bottom line is we're free form and they're just going to have to deal.
I don't think increasing the rare candies needed is fair if levels don't play as much of an effect. All you'd be accomplishing is punishing anyone whose pokemon doesn't get their preferred move set until much later in their leveling.
● as the site progresses the level system will be scaled. that means letting the price drop when everyone's caught up, or increasing it when there's someone who's ahead.
it's like the pokemon games. higher levelled pokemon have to gain more exp to level up. this system is similar to that, but with rare candies.
we want to limit how fast people level because we want new people to catch up easier. it's not exactly a limit, but it's going to be harder for higher levelled pokemon to get stronger.
it isn't fun when someone's super strong. i think people can wait a week or two for a move they want, while other people catch up. by then, the levelling system can be scaled so that it's easier to level up for everyone. that way the site isn't alienating new members.
● a level cap sounds like an ideal solution, but as the site progresses, there will always be new members. that means people will join when the cap is level 80. old members leave all the time. new members join all the time. at some point, it becomes obsolete, because in the end it's the old members that are still the strongest.
● same goes with the rc cap. the new members will feel like their pokemon won't ever be able to catch up because the old members have the same rate. it's not easier for them to catch up, since everyone can automatically boost their levels by 5 each week or something.
● honestly, freeform probably isn't going to be changed. levels are not going to be changed. the issue at hand now is the rare candies.
these are only ideas, nothing is planned to change soon unless most of the site agrees to it.
the thing with pokemon sites is that there will always be people unhappy about the system. i know we're all having fun with this thread and all, but does the system really need any fixing?
Post by Dmitri Khvostov on Jul 22, 2015 8:19:39 GMT
I don't think it needs changed, nor do I want it to change. I believe the reason this thread picked up traction was the misidentified information surrounding how battling takes place here on calamity.
I want to make a quick sentiment about free form, and get some answers about where I'm wrong and where I'm right, if you guys don't mind me slightly derailing this thread right quick. (Gomen. orz)
So here is what about the games should be taken into account when guesstimating for free form battling. I'll also list what I think shouldn't or obviously isn't part of the free form essentials.Essentials 1.) Typing Advantages/Disadvantages 2.) Same Type Ability Bonus 3.) Secondary Effects 4.) Pokemon Base Stats & Stat Modifiers 5.) Physical/Special Move Types
Negligibles 1.) Pokemon Level* 2.) Evasion Stat/Move Accuracy 3.) Base Power of Moves*I mostly have concerns surrounding the base power of moves. Since accuracy can be neglected, it would be nice to be able to pick lesser base power moves and not have them be discriminated against as weaker. Most people would probably go against this, but here's my point.
There are quite a few moves that are really good, but have a low base power. While I believe certain moves would obviously deal more damage than others, base power shouldn't be an excuse to mitigate someone's damage output drastically. Typing and STAB should play a much greater role in determining this.
Again though, I'm biased towards my Ice-type moves. Freeze-Dry has an amazing secondary effect that I don't want to have diminished in efficacy all because my pokemon actually got stronger. If the base power effects how useful the move will be at higher levels, then it kind of goes against the idea that my pokemon getting stronger means its abilities all get stronger.
While we're on the topic of certain moves/abilities being subject to discrimination, I feel like we need to take a more careful look at how some abilities and moves function in free form. Certain things just pave the way for abuse, while others sit there and are wasted. I'll try to explain.
Teleport: Ironically the most useless move ever becomes the most broken move ever if I willfully abused it in free form. This is just as an example of how far things can get out of hand.
Technician: If we disregard base power, or at least don't allow it to mean as much as it could, then abilities like this are wasteful. We should work on addressing situations where an ability or move doesn't translate to free form as well as it ought to.Well I don't know why that came out all of a sudden, it's totally off topic and I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time with irrelevant information.
Is there anything missing from the list? Is there something that doesn't belong, or maybe doesn't belong where I placed it? A chart like this may help guide a few people to understanding how we operate much better. I think it's worth a shot.
